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- On appropriate communication for promotion: an interview with Seth Godin
On appropriate communication for promotion: an interview with Seth Godin
Seth Godin is the author of 7 best-selling books on marketing, web design, communications and more. Called "the Ultimate Entrepreneur for the Information Age" by Business Week, Godin also writes a blog that's one of the most widely read online.
One of Godin's projects is Squidoo, a highly usable and dyanmic service for sharing knowledge on any topic.
Marshall
Can you start by telling our nonprofits a few key points on doing promotion in a respectful and thus effective way?
Seth
Well, it starts with this - you think what you're doing is important so you don't worry about offending because you're on a "mission from god." In fact, the person you are talking with (not to) has the power to ignore you and it doesn't matter how important it is to you if it's important to them, they'll listen if not, they ignore you. So you must start from a posture of non-power.
Marshall
How do you do that? What kind of thinking does that require?
Seth
Don't call me at home during dinner, don't ask for another donation the day after I gave you one and don't demand that I listen to every single idea as if they are all equally important. Realize that my attention is precious and don't waste it.
Marshall
So some people believe that the key is to persuade by figuring out how to get past peoples' skeptical filters, but it doesn't appear you opporate that way. Am I right?
Seth
"Get past" is not a good way to start. Start with telling a story that people WANT to hear, a story they can believe, a story that's true. You have zero chance of getting me to change my mind, at least at first. Instead, you must tell a story that matches my mind, that matches my worldview.
Marshall
Let's talk about the technical part a bit. You're obviously engaged in new methods of communication, like the blogosphere what are some of your favorite new tools that are emerging and what are they offering you?
Seth
Do you have a blog? If your organization doesn't, why not? Do people read it? Why not? How about a squidoo.com lens? It's free and fast if you don't have a blog or a lens I don't think you're serious about finding new ways to engage people. If you do have one and no one is reading it, you're not being honest with yourself or with the readers. Either that or your story is just flat or inauthentic.
Marshall
What are some of the things you've learned about making the most of these media? I know you've been posting lately about the possibility of RSS fatigue, for example.
Seth
I think the big issues are more important than some of the details. Most non profits are so so clueless. My favorite example more than a quarter of a million people have used Squidoo since December. Any idea how many non-profits have emailed me and asked to be listed as a charity or to get promotion? ZERO
Marshall
wow.
Seth
It's not like I'm hard to find. I've got to go in about one minute. I really really want to pitch your readers on reading "flipping the funnel." It's free and short and no long words, mostly.
Marshall
What is it?
Seth
Go to squidoo.com/seth and you'll see my lens - the ebook is listed there. There's a special edition just for non profits.
Marshall
Let's say I'm a young guy in an organization wanting to build support for engagement with these kinds of tools. is it worth trying to convince skeptical leadership or is that the wrong org to do it in?
Seth
Yes, but do it first, ask later. It's free, they won't fire you.
Comments
Nonprofits are just not ready
...nonprofits are not clueless, they're just not ready. The nonprofit sector has always seemed like a insulated pocket of socialism in a capitalist world. Nonprofits are 10 years behind on everything. It's like being in Moscow in 1991- you couldn't get a decent pair of jeans or Nintendo for another 10 years. I know an Executive Director that attended a conference about generating revenue on the internet this year and is very gung ho about incorporating a web site into their long term strategy. THIS YEAR!!??? 2006. Meanwhile in the "for profit sector", Amazon was leading the way in e-commerce over a decade ago. Nevertheless,the conference worked. More education will change the current environment.
So, there is hope for squidoo and nonprofits. I hope so. It may take time - maybe 10 years. :-) In essence, Squidoo is another take on Third Party Fundraising and I'm a huge proponent of the concept.
...See the full post here --> http://blueskycollaborative.typepad.com/blog/2006/04/squidoo_lenses_.html
THEY'LL NEVER BE READY FOR SETH GODIN
You can be as ruthless as you like in business, but non-profits have to be completely above board without any indications that they are obtaining money by means that are in any way open to question. You can get away with using semi-devious marketing methods to sell your products in business. People almost expect it. The same is not true for non-profits where there can be absolutely no suggestion of being on the make for a quick buck and this is what Seth Godin doesn't get because he is not honest enough to understand it.
Nonprofits are ready for the right ways
I don't know if you saw the full exchange, Syam, but my original critique was not about whether nonprofits should use Squidoo--it's about how they should use it, what it can actually accomplish, and whether it's fair to disparage them for not using a tool that won't work as touted.
Like Seth, you presume that it is inherently viable as a fundraising strategy. You also presume that nonprofits -- only because they are so backward -- would automatically reject it to their detriment. But no one has shown or given realistic examples of how nonprofits could actually generate significant revenue from Squidoo. Until that happens, nonprofit boards (who are usually made up of business executives, by the way) and other decision makers should indeed be skeptical of it as a major fundraising tool.
I'm a little taken aback by your low opinion of the sector that you serve.....I've experienced some of what you describe, but I've experienced the same in the business world. Respected business expert Jim Collins, in a paper called Good to Great and the Social Sectors: Why Business Thinking Is Not the Answer, writes, "We must reject the idea—well-intentioned, but dead wrong—that the primary path to greatness in the social sectors is to become ‘more like a business.’ Most businesses—like most of anything else in life—fall somewhere between mediocre nd good. Few are great.”
You compare the typical nonprofit to Amazon.com -- I don't think that's valid. Let's compare Moveon.org to Amazon, and we'll find that the nonprofit and business worlds compare favorably in how they're harnessing the Web. As I wrote before, it's not about old ways vs. new ways--it's about the right ways to use any tool.
And there are some nonprofits, e..g, the Grameen Foundation, that seem to be using Squidoo effectively as a promotional and educational tool for their cause, not necessarily as a fundraising tool. It' s not taking them 10 years.
Squidoo would also do well to be more transparent, as Noel suggests. Smart nonprofits do not and should not enter into any kind of cause-related marketing program without knowing the specifics of the costs, benefits, rights, and responsibilities of both the commercial marketer and the nonprofit cause. (Aside from being unrealistic, Seth's example of asking 3,000 donors to create pages from which their friends would buy kids' winter clothing is, effectively, a cause-related marketing program, e.g., "If you buy clothing from this page I made with links to A Store and B Store, a portion of the proceeds will go toward the New York Philharmonic.)
If Squidoo can offer better examples for how it can help nonprofits raise money, and if it can provide a detailed contract outlining how proceeds from lens-related sales will be shared, I am sure many nonprofits will embrace it more readily as a fundraising tool. Until then, I hope more do as the Grameen Foundation does, and use it as another way to promote their mission and programs.
Not ready? perhaps? But demand seems pent up..
I think organizations and especially new blood in organizations are ready for utilizing new tools and ways of working and thinking; non-profits that aren't doing this will not attract the best talent. Last year at a non-profit management conference I went to dinner with the "young persons" contingent... this was not a "non-profit tech" related conference... there was just not that many of us and the common complaint was management afraid of change and afraid of empowering folks since they've been running on the same formula forever..
Now some people in business have had the same problem.. what happened is that new businesses that did the same thing better and more productively came along and stole the show.. I think the same does and should hold true for non-profits..
Judging by the huge response to the TechSoup online social networking conversation going on, we can see that largely, the time is right... evolving the culture will be the challenge just as with business. .. however, it is happening.. computers and the Internet should be considered like a pen and pencil which you don't think about using, you just use it and its a part of life, IMHO.
John Lorance
CompuMentor